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Leonard Bukowski

Help with Battery Choice Upgrade for SONDORS X

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Hello, Is there really a noticeable difference if I put a 52V battery in my 2018 SONDORS X 7 speed 750W and 35A controller? I will be upgrading the SONDORS X7 and putting a 35A controller + 750W Motor, the bike currently has the 48V stock battery. I’m looking for more low end torque , easier hill climbing and high end speed of possiblely 28 plus mph. I was going to put the LX52 battery in the bike but Do I really need it to get the results I listed ? I am under 180lbs. Thoughts and Suggestions...

Thank you

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Yes, about 10% more  power; Speed/Top End , Torque/Acceleration with the 52v (actually 58.8volts at full charge) over the 48v of comperable Ah. It you want more range, also, buy a Luna 52v Triangle Battery with Panasonic 18650GA High Power / Long Range cells with the highest cell density @ 3500mah. 

I’m not sure of which cells or the cell mah capacity is on the Electrobikeworld LX52 pack. I do have both the Luna listed below and the EBW L3 and the Luna is superior. 

The 52v along with the 35amp controller will increase torque, acceleration and top speed. No one can quantify exactly how much but very noticeable. No Sondors are good hill climbers but that again depends on what hills you are referencing. I’m not familiar with the terrain in Piscataway, New Jersey. Mid Drive motors are superior in that respect and if that’s your criteria you might consider building a mid drive bike. 

https://lunacycle.com/triangle-52v-panasonic-ga-18650-17ah-pack-high-power-long-range/

Read the benefits of the 52volts.

https://www.electricbike.com/52v-battery-3077-fet/

image.jpeg.460181aebee7ca43d0f0c2b7c7188c24.jpeg

     Reddy

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Hey Len,

Short answer - Yes.

Long answer. The difference between (European spec) stock bike and a 52v pack and a 35a controller is what... assuming a 80% efficiency,  ya as close as makes little difference at 1,500w peak.  Now that's twice the watts being thrown at the bullet proof 750w motor, but you'll be fine.  No one has reported issues with that motor to the best of my knowledge.

As such, I'd be surprised if you don't feel the difference myself.

PS - Unit pack power (AliExpress) had a pretty unbelievable deal on their 52v triangle during the recent sales.  Let me dog up the link for ya...

https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/eGYrU9i

Looks like it's still available on black Friday, if ya ready to go?  Oh, and you could up the amps (via the controller) if you still want more power and it looks like the BMS on the pack would be up to the job.  I'd just confirm what cells you'll get - for peace of mind.  

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Leonard, Yes “CHEAP”! But you get what you pay for. And the pack that’s  specified is pretty low on power and density with cells @ 2500mAh.  At that price, they are not 18650Rs. The fact that they don’t specify what cell, gives reason to question the quality of that pack.  That chemestry might be so old it out dates the 18650PF which were recommended for a eBike’s requirements 4 years ago.  I don’t believe any of our Domestic Suppliers (EBW, Luna or VeloM) offers any cells that lacking. In my opinion, there is only one cell to consider at the top of the heap, 18650GA @ 3500 mAh, both High Power and Long Range, unless your only concern is max hi drain delivery power, for max speed and then the 18650R cells, will discharge with the most current delivery to drive you at top speed but at the cost of range. Some of our vendors offer 18650PF cells as their bargain packs @3.6V -2900mAh.  Most of our domestic suppliers supply 40 amp BMS and Luna 50amp, on their premium packs.  Even the Sondors 48v Triangle packs use the 3500  mAh 18650GA cells. 

And because of the pack, in the link’s physical structure, I’m sure that triangle wouldn't fit in a Thin’s Box and I’d make damn sure that it fit in a Fat because return shipping to China would be half the cost of that battery if it doesn’t, and  that’s  on  you. 

I always take advantage of China’s 11/11,  Singles Day Sales (Honoring Single People) and besides, touch screen microfiber gloves, for riding and a Christmas Present of a Winter Coat for my Red Border Collie, Scarlett, I scored another Bafang 750watt geared hubmotor, $173 bucks, for my Dolimite build and it was delivered today, DHL free shipping! Everybody needs a winter project. 

28CE0414-1F80-4A12-8743-61F14D9E4D26.thumb.jpeg.7efaafb420a5b7350f8b54ede9d92e7c.jpeg

  image.jpeg.460181aebee7ca43d0f0c2b7c7188c24.jpeg

     Reddy 

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It's a 52v pack and I said to check the cells with the seller for peace of mind...?

In my world, that 14s.  

The advert says it 15Ah.

I'll say it again.  Check with the seller regarding what cells are actually in the pack itself, but that's a pretty unbelievable price for a 52v pack from (and this is important) a highly respected seller on Ali.

Still, we are all adults, so decide for yourself.

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 Leonard, UNITPACKPOWER and the bargain basement priced packs they offer and the YouTube poster that act as their advertiser are well known but the quality of electrical  current delivery, as it relates to performance, differs within the individual cell choices and those cells are not specified for a reason and may not be evident or familiar to the person making the query regardless of any disclaimer. If posters had that knowledge they wouldn’t come for advise. A lot of buyers are lured into purchases by the bargain prices and because they lack in-depth knowledge of individual cell capacities and chemistries, they come to the forum for advise. They are at a disadvantage & vulnerable to advertising hype and strategies. A lot of owners have made purchasing mistakes dealing with Aliexpress. That’s why we have our Favored Sondors Aftermarket Suppliers.  They specify what’s offered and are focused on Sondors upgrades. When a forum member asks for advise on an upgrade from a 48V 14Ah Sondors  pack, that already contains QUALITY 18650GA High Power + Long Range cells and asks if an upgrade to 52v is viable and can produce a noticeable difference, the optimal concept here is, “Is The  Upgrade Worth the Investment”. If you compare similar cells but in a higher pack voltage and higher Ah rating,  yep, that’s definitely an advantage and noticeably more torque and hill climbing performance. Not a worthwhile difference enough to warrant the cost  though, if inferior cells are recommended, that actually deliver less performance than the Stock Sondors pack. 

image.jpeg.cf2e48c846cb6421ec11823ad229f7af.jpeg

                                Happy Holidays Reddy 

 

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The Panasonic GA is only a good choice when you are piling it into a very large pack.  While it has a relatively high data storage capacity at 3500 mah,  It doesn't handle power drains well.  It is rated by the manufacturer for a 10A drain, which is not particularly strong (in the battery world of, say, 2015 you had a choice between storage and power output, so the GA went the storage route).  Here's where it becomes smart to use GA's in bigger packs:  They are rated for 10A but they get unusually hot The DIY battery crowd's rule of thumb with them is to keep them to about 7A (remember, heat is what kills a cell).  Thats pretty low, but just fine for any Sondors application you can think of; especially in a big pack like Reddy Kilowatt is describing.

https://www.imrbatteries.com/sanyo-ncr18650ga-3500mah-10a-flat-top-battery/

Look at the cost per cell. 

Also for the era of 2015-ish, the Samsung 25R was on the other end of the storage vs. output world.  This cell has a 2500mah capacity so significantly less than the GA.  But it is rated for 20A output... and that output rating has turned out to be conservative.  You can beat the living snot out of a 25R pack and it will take it and stay cool.  Since the cells are also older tech, they are inexpensive.  I use a 25R pack on my BBSHD/Bafang AWD bike to run both of my motors.  It has a 70a continuous BMS which is higher than anything you will find commercially produced, and it can take that draw no problem.

https://www.imrbatteries.com/samsung-25r-18650-rechargeable-battery/

Considering the power and reliability of this battery, its a good thing, right?  Look at the cost per cell.  The lowest of any described here.  Double bonus.  The tradeoff is that capacity.  If you are targetting a particular capacity you will have to go to a physically bigger pack.  But not colossal.  I have two 25R packs, one from Luna designed for the Sondors, and another custom built - at 17.5ah and 20 ah respectively and they aren't unusually large. 

As for the EBW batteries that are so inexpensive, they use Panasonic NCR18650PF cells which are decent storage at 2900 mah and decent output at 10A.  And they don't get hot.  So... superior output to the GA in real-world, at the expense of some capacity.   Look at the cell price.  They aren't cheap but also not the most expensive.

https://www.imrbatteries.com/panasonic-ncr18650pf-2900mah-10a-flat-top-battery/

So much for the 2015 era of batteries.  What about 2019?  Remember the inevitable trade-off between capacity and output?  Enter the Samsung 30Q.  3000mah capacity and 15A output.  Quite the nice compromise vs. a 25R's output.  I have two 30Q batteries:  First is a pair of 14S2P Luna Mini Cubes wired together in parallel.  They get hot.  Not a shock considering they are 2P packs.  But here's the thing:  The 30Q is made to take high heat.  Thats more or less unique for an 18650.  My second 30Q is a Luna Wolf pack, a 14S4P 12ah potted, crash- and heat-proof super battery, essentially.  Not cheap at $600 but their BMS is underrated (its actually capable of 100a continuous and dialed back at Luna) and its been shown to run a Tangent Ascent at full chat without frying.  Considering that is a motor that is commonly run at 60-80 amps - or more - thats saying a hell of a lot for a 4P pack. 

https://www.imrbatteries.com/samsung-30q-18650-3000mah-15a-flat-top-battery/

And look at that cell price.  There is no longer a premium on them. 

I am presently having a battery custom built for me to fit into an XL frame's triangle.  Right now I fit my Luna Storm 17.5ah 25R battery, and my two parallel'd Luna Mini Cube 6ah batteries, for a total of 29.5ah.  The new battery will be all 30Q's.  My current 29.5ah 'pack' weighs 19 lbs.  The 30ah 30Q weighs 14 lbs.  It is 14S9P so heat will be a non issue, which is a good thing because it will have a BMS rated for 80 amps continuous, with a 150 amp peak and I'll use that.   Good luck matching that weight and output with ANY of the other cells listed above.  If you want current best-of-breed, its the 30Q. 

But its by no means the only choice.  As you can see from the above, there is no single best cell.  You have to understand the ins and outs of the cells in the marketplace: what they are good or not so good for.  Your decision needs to take into account size, heat, amp draw (always always always find out what the BMS is rated for and ignore its *peak* capacity.  Make sure its *continuous* capacity exceeds your controller's *peak* number or you will trip the BMS when the controller peaks for more than the second or three.  Been there done that on throttle going up a hill and the unpowered ride back to the charger to reset the BMS ... sucked).

 

As for UPP/UnitPackPower, you see some folks over at Endless Sphere saying both good and bad things about them.  The good usually comes from new purchasers happy they saved a bundle.  the bad comes from folks who have been using them awhile.  The unspecified-cell packs are Chinese cells - not a big shock.  Look carefully at their BMS numbers.  Usually they keep them pretty low, and you do not want to be running a BMS at or past its max continuous capacity to run your bike.  I personally wouldn't touch them with a 10-foot pole.  What is your house worth?  What is your house worth after it burns down?  Your battery pack business should not go to the lowest bidder.

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