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Thanks. I think you ended up with a long cage derailleur @alienmeatsack so that may not be link for link with my install, but it would be ballpark. Could you maybe mark a link with tape and count without having to go to all the mess of pulling the chain? I saw somewhere on this thread 115 or 125 for the number of links, I was going to start there.

I only have the old school chain tool that backs out the pins, I hope it will work for this chain. Maybe the new chain has one master link, if so as long as I can back out a pin on the existing chain to link them up I'll be good to go.

For extra flash my new chain is silver, so I'll have either mostly brown with a splash of silver, or mostly silver with a splash of brown. I was going to alternate links in a 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 pattern, but I can see that is going to take way to much time.

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Yeah, I went off what someone else had used. Next year I may replace it with a shorter one to clean up the install.

As far as measuring etc, I have no problems doing whatever is needed to help out. I know the chain was a typical KMZ (K10?) BMX chain, i got 2, and one of those pin pushers for chains like you mentioned to shorten the chain. Each chain came with a "fast connect" which is bulky but works. I used two of those, one to hold the two chains together, then one to hold the ends as I slowly took links off to get it right. I then put on a proper "permanant" connector and left one of the fast connectors in place to troubleshoot my derailleur rub issue which is I think fixed finally. Its been 4+ months so I cant remember.

I have PT here shortly... I will take a few pics and count links, maybe repost a picture of the leftover chain and my derailleur on the bike to help you eyeball the length you need.

FWIW you won't be able to use that tool to put back together the chain where you pushed out the pins, at least not safely. They are typically not meant to be reused if they are pushed out. So make sure to get yourself a few extra quick links and proper links for when you need them.

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Just don't push the pin/rivets all the way out of the side plate on the lengths of chain you are keeping. The tool is typically called a "chain break" and yes pins are okay to reuse but near impossible to restart. You won't have an easy time replacing pins you have completely removed. I use the "Master Link" to easily remove the chain to thoroughly clean it or wax it. 

Edited by Tabletteer

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@Grinchy - I still owe you and the thread a link count. It's been nuts here, plus my THIN came so I was trying to move the garage around so I can get at the fat bike and move the THIN out of the way... on my limited movement leg. I will go out there this weekend and take pics and measure. If I dont, PM me here to remind me. I am somewhat spaced since all this happened and my short term isn't what I remembered. (Pun intended)

I actually did count links, shoot pics of both pieces of chain when I was done separate (one whole, one the piece I attached) but I could not find the images. Which is odd since they would have been posted in this thread or on my photo cloud and computer. So I'll just reshoot what I can with my limitations. If only I could cut up the box from the THIN more easily, that would help me get around in the garage more to see/count. Oh, and I broke my darned workbench lamp so lighting out there is iffy. It's bright (3 diff LED bulbs in main room) but not enough to get detail. ANYWAY enough rambling.

I've learned a TON here. And I know when I can ride again I will most likely redo my conversion using the wisdom learned here and by myself.

This forum is hands down the best place to talk Sondors shop. I am still running into people all the time who have no clue what it even is. And when you say eBike they just look at you like "a moped"?. :D

Edited by alienmeatsack
Respecting someone's request

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@Grinchy - I hobbled out into the garage to measure/count your links for you, but the chain was wrapped around the rear 3 speed. I forgot that happened when I fell. So I can't remove it without some force and probably removing the rear wheel. It was super hot, the sun was baking me, and my leg was not happy. So I did the best I could with what I had. I'm going to have to have my brother help me remove the fat bike's longer chain so I can photo and count it. I may also try to put it next to the stock chain so you can see the diff in length.

So, hoping it helps until then, here is what I could gather for you...

Chains - I used two KMC Z410 (BMX style) chains, 112L each. One I kept whole, the other I cut off around 49 links total. Please note that number is based on the leftover chain, counting "Links" and not every bit of the chain... I consider the outside wider parts to be the "links". So there should be somewhere around 63 links on the longer chain on the bike.

I have attached a photo of ALL of the leftover chain from chain #2. That is about 6 parts put back together for the picture to show how little of the full chain was needed. I used this to count links (the wider pieces that alternate along the chain). I started long and slowly took off links in groups until I got the size I want. If your front chainring is smaller or larger, it will effect this number by a decent amount. So I say start long and wittle it down to the length you need.

Hope this helps!

IMG_6751.JPG

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Dear AlienMeatsack,

I infer from your recent posts that you had a hard landing on your bike? Are you OK? Older guys (such as myself) don't bounce as well as our younger counterparts. I hope you are mending well and the damage to you and your bike was minimal. Stay well.

Sincerely,

MisterFixIt1952

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@MisterFixIt1952 - Check my thread on my wreck from March to get all the details.

Aside from that, I've not even been allowed ON the bike, any bike since March 23rd. And won't be until next Spring. As far as defending me, I appreciate it.

I'm trying to figure out the rebuild of the 3-Speed conversion on the fatty, figuring out how to use what I've learned and what you all have done into a more efficient shifting system. I keep hoping someone will build a custom 3-Speed shifter grip for us hint hint you machine friendly people. I will pay for one that hits all three gears and doesn't require overshifting then back to catch the last gear :D

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Sorry to hear about your crash. A similar thing happened to my best friend. He was riding his new eBike and trying to go up a driveway that had a tall entry and his tire caught the tall edge and flipped him off the bike and he ended up with about 2 lbs of hardware in his shattered elbow. I think he was about 65 at the time so it was pretty traumatic, not to mention painful. Took a long time for him to recover.

About that shifter project that I am (sorta ) working on. I finally got all of the parts assembled but due to my home remodeling project from hell, I have spent most of the summer working to get my living space in order. I haven't had the time or the working space to proceed with any of my other projects including my 3 speed upgrade. As a mater of fact I haven't been able to ride my bike all summer. Almos every square foot of my house is either "in construction" or is filled up with building materials. Also my workshop entry is almost completely blocked by my dead van and until I can get the new transmission installed I can't get into my shop to work. I hope to get that problem taken care of this week.

As soon as I get a working shifter finished I will let you know. I would be happy to put one together for you. The whole mechanism is actually pretty simple and could be installed in about an hour or less. The only thing you need to do to your existing installation is to remove the spring from your derailleur and attach the new shifter cable from the controller and attach the shift switch to the handlebars. The controller servo doesn't need the heavy spring on the derailleur to shift the gears down as the servo holds the derailleur in the correct position for the selected cog. Total cost of the whole assembly is $3 for the arduino tiny cpu, $12 for the stepper motor, $5 for the stepper controller and some wire and a few misc parts plus a short cable and sheath plus a small project box to put the whole thing in. Since the whole controller runs on 3.5-6v. I might run it off of a separate Li-Ion battery, just to keep things simple. The controller should run for weeks on a single charge since it only runs when you shift. I think I'll use a toggle switch to shift. Push it up to shift up and down to shift down. About as easy as it gets. I could make it auto shift by sensing the current draw from the battery and have it down shift when it senses a need for more power but I will have to work out the specifics when I get one working. It is relatively easy to upgrade the programming with a usb cable and a PC so you could upgrade the controller software as I come up with new tweaks. 

The great thing about the controller is that we are all using the same 3 cog freewheel so you won't need to tweak the programming to fit your cog spacing. It's easy to reprogram the controller for any cog set but it requires you to hook it up to a computer and tweak the stepper motor settings to tune the cog spacing and number of gears to shift. The controller could be programmed for any spacing and number of cogs if you wanted to change over to a 5 speed. I will post detailed instructions about the build and programming soon. Also, this is going to be an open source project so I'm hoping that I will get some interesting feedback from other builders. There are a lot of smart and resourceful people on this blog.

I'll try to get some work done on it as soon as I can. Maybe this week. At the least I will post some pictures of my parts so you can see what I have in mind.

Get well and I'll see if I can get you a working model before you start fixing up your bike.

MisterFixIt1952

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@MisterFixIt1952 - I def feel you on the remodel, I've been remodeling my house for 25 years. I work on a big section until I am broke, wait, repeat. Currently in the waiting for money part. I unexpectedly spent $8k on medocal costs from the break in my leg. And had other things like a washerdryer replacement and mold to be removed.

But, I am here, reading and learning. Im doing my PT and exercises and counting the days till I can ride again.

In the meantime, your shifter thing sounds very cool. No huge rush here, I cant ride until next year. But I am definitely interested in your shifter once you get it all perfected and want to sell some to people like me :D It actually sounds like something I'd have built 5 or so years ago when I was circuit bending and repairing, building amps etc. I read "Arduino" and my nerd brain went "squeeee!" :D I have a full sized one here I am hoping to use on a project. I just need to learn the programming language. And a lot more. You are certainly much more knowledable then I in that regard good sir!

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Actually, my programming is rustier than a bike chain left out in the rain. The thing about arduino is there is a sample of just about any program you can think of, somewhere on the web. Also I ran across a program that lets you do something like visual programming by just plugging in blocks like legos. They have a large, growing library of modules for different gizmos that you can connect to an arduino. Super easy programming because you hook up a virtual device and when it works you plug together the real thing, input the program it generates and viola, instant gizmo. You can also write your own modules if you feel like doing some coding. Best $20 I've spent in a long time.

Also, I already have some arduino code from a couple of other similar servo shifter projects I found on the web so the coding part is the easy part. I just need to make the servo mount and linkage to the derailleur and the box to put it all in. It would be real handy if I had a 3D printer but that's still a ways off on the todo list. Just to give you an idea of the size of the thing, I might mount the servo and arduino inside an aluminum cigar tube I found laying around. Wires out the top, cable out the bottom. That's how big the finished device is. Right now I need to concentrate on making some useable work space in my living space and my new shop.

I'll get back to you soon with more info and some pictures.

MisterFixIt1952

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My chain is really stuck on the bike, based on the attempts this morning to remove it. I may have to make another new one and just get this one off at any cost. I still have another 3-speed as well, if needed. 

I am thinking I will pull that back wheel when I can to see if I can more easily get the chain off. It's wrapped around a good part of the 3-speed, and tight.

Its just too heavy for me with my leg, so I have to wait a bit.

I may still pull at the chain some more and hope it comes loose. And get a set of new ones to make a fresh one ordered.

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So my parts list is earlier in the thread, but it's basically the same as Scotts (3 speed right hand twist shift, short cage derailleur) and the stock chainring. I added three links (four pins) to the new chain, which is sold as 112 links.

I did not need any 'padding' washers inside the chainstays.

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@Tabletteer It's the Shimano Tourney FT35. It's really cheap. No B adjustment. Does have a nice little secondary nut to hold it in the dropout. I would say it is purpose built for retrofitting onto a previous single speed.

Can't take too much credit for sourcing it, Scott used it and linked it in his how-to post.

I also used the SRAM 3 speed shifter Scott linked. I should have paid a bit more attention on the housing routing, his around front from right to left side handlebar run (back thru right behind the head tube) looks better than mine, where I stayed all on the right. Now I don't have enough housing to replicate. . . .

As I said before, I just used the new chain (silver looks really awesome to me) and two large plates (four pins) of the old chain. I had a chain tool on my crank bros multitool and it worked fine. I couldn't even get one rotation with the master link, it jammed in the derailleur, so my chain is all pins.

I kept the front chainring stock, I live in Seattle and have nothing but hills around me. I rode up 4 blocks last night in my new 40/22 granny gear no PAS (and no throttle . . .) no problem, so at least I can ride now in a no electrics situation. It felt a few cogs short of the granny gear on my old 10 speed, but a big improvement none the less.

 

 

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Yes, I know. This is a 3 Speed Topic, but look at this 7 Speed Beast O.o

 

14203281_10208532504522567_2921540352061742597_n.jpg 7-speed 13-28 freewheel

 

On a Sondors eBike:

14224870_10208533516387863_3862808104062667309_n.jpg

14199661_10208533116217859_6938880158554104455_n.jpg

14225343_10208533516227859_2196175937314425395_n.jpg

Images provided by Houshmand Moarefi

His comment:

Quote

My friends at Coco Bikes, they nave the magic. Thanks Jake Thrumble for an amazing job.

 

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Yep, if you're willing to stretch the frame a bit, 5, 6, 7 speed can apply. The cost isn't really any different . . . just get a 3/32 chain (which I think means a new chainring too, though I don't recall).

 

And that is one hell of a cable loop to reach the derailleur.

Edited by Grinchy
chainring required for 3/32 chain?

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That is quite quite the beast. Definitely not the stock Bafang. That looks like Alien's 750. You need the long cassette model to fit that many cogs on the motor. Not to mention a lot of extra chain, big triangle battery, and the big controller, etc. No problem, just throw your check book at it ;)

Sincerely,

MisterFixIt1952

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Two week update on the 'basic' 3-speed conversion, where I didn't replace the chainring.

It works well. Certainly worth the price ($35) if you ask me. The whole thing was super easy. I spent more time learning how to adjust derailleurs (again) than the install took. I live in a hilly area and appreciate the extra granny gears. Unfortunately higher cadence doesn't mean more pedal assist. But I can now go 7 mph at a comfortable hill cadence in 40/22 on PAS 2 and climb most hills with only moderate effort. PAS 4 and it is good for very steep hills. I'm a pedal rider, so I never really use just throttle for anything. 

Parts used (documented earlier in thread in detail). Shifter (came with housing and cable), derailleur (came with axle based hanger), four pins of chain (or new chain + four pins of the old), 16-19-22 freewheel, two big zipties, two little zipties. Hacksaw to cut the stock grip and cable housing.

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That 7-Speed is a thing of beauty!

As far as throwing checkbooks at it - that was all I did for a while to learn and replace parts as I figured the conversion out. Turned out the hardest part was just getting the shifter right. :D

The black fatty will get fixed. That chain is really 'in there', so I'm going to have to buy another set to merge, and may get one of the shorter derailleurs seen here in the thread. It will be 3-Speed 2.0. :D

@Grinchy, I love how you summarized all the thread into one short paragraph :D And I hope we see more conversions on the fatty's esp!

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On 15/6/2016 at 8:51 PM, JeffK said:

 

This is what I bought to do my 3sp conversion on my new Sondors Thin bike.

Derailleur  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014N4WQZA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Crank set with 56t chaining  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NZI8ZS8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Shifter with cables (used only the left side ) https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00XVPC7UW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Chain (had to add links from another one I had) https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013C4JGU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

3 speed freewheel http://www.ebay.com/itm/351702755827?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Need cable housing, ties and a longer derailleur inside stop bolt- don't know the size

Hi Jeff,

Thank you so much for posting about this 3sp conversion. This is exactly what i want to do with my Sondors THIN- as the stock single speed is not much use when going fast.

But alas, installing gears on a bike is a bit of a daunting challenge, since I have never (with any notable success) mocked about with the finer details of gears and derailleurs in this way!

I first went to my local bike repair shop. Explained what you'd done. Showed him the bike. Was ready to throw the credit card after it. And then the guy insisted it cannot be done.

He got me wondering too, him being a professional and all...

Anyway, I'm thinking now that he's probably just not good enough a bike repair guy, som now I figure I'll get the parts, print out your pics, and then go down to another bike shop and ask them to install it all.

I dont live in the US - so it'll have to be Amazon UK for me. I just want to double check I'm not chosing the wrong stuff here, so would I be ok if I ordered these parts:

Derailleur : https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01D5OAE30/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1U29I2I95HMM7

Crank set with 56t chaining: cant find yours anywhere except in the US. Any alternatives that could be recommended?

Shifter: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shimano-Tourney-SL-TX30-Thumb-Shifters/dp/B01BE27YS8/ref=sr_1_9?s=sports&ie=UTF8&qid=1474528269&sr=1-9&keywords=Shimano%2C+SL-TX30+Tourney

Cables and housing: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00YP2RPXY/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A78KJF5XDCZ5M

Chain: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Clarks-Release-Various-Derailleur-Systems/dp/B005PVLWC4/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=sports&ie=UTF8&qid=1474528619&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=Bicycle+Chain+(5-Speed%2C+1%2F2+x+3%2F32-Inch%2C+116L%2C

3 speed freewheel: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B009PKMAZY/ref=ox_sc_act_title_5?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A50DZI580G3JX

And "a longer derailleur inside stop bolt" you say?.... ehm. No idea what I'd be looking for here, but gussing a bike shop would have something lying around.

Hope you can help - any guidance would be awesome!

Thanks,

JKS

 

 

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I'm no Jeff, but if you can get the wheel off and run a hacksaw, you can do this conversion. My guess is you'll need to order an additional cable housing and cable because that is the only finicky part of the install getting it cut the 'right' length. If you're really conservative, drop 5 quid on a second 16t freewheel so you can return to stock.

You can also try a different bicycle repair shop.

I did it in stages over many days.

Day 1 - cut the handlebar grip and put the handlebar shifter on.

Day Next - Mount the derailleur and cut the cable housing

Day Next - Pull the wheel, replace the freewheel, size the chain.

Day Next - Fiddle with derailleur limit screws and cable tension

If you do the chainring, you would do that when you size the chain.

 

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I am with @Grinchy - Prepare prepare prepare. Have extra chain and rear freewheel if possible to return to stock. Do it in stages where You are in control. When you have to remove the original chain, you can even leave it on the bike and pull out of the way and fasten temporarily. SO you can go back stock if something goes wrong. It did for me many times but others, smooth sailing.

Once you know what you need its an easy conversion, as at least I thought so post all these pages. :D

Put the most time into removing the old freewheel (since it requires breakdown) and tuning your gears/deraileur. Beyond that, this is a pretty easy job once you have all the stuff not to do by alienmeatsack :D And there are such great ideas here. All spurred on by 2 things... @biknut's conversion and my need to have more pedal power for hills, speed and my workout.

Edited by alienmeatsack
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I'm just about at the point where I need to take apart my chain to start doing this conversion, and was wondering if anyone has successfully used a master link with the recommended 3-speed cassette? I would like to be able to remove my chain more easily for maintenance on the rear tire. Not a big deal if the cassette and derailleur are not compatible with a master link.

I'm also wondering about the tools needed to break the chain. Is there a single tool that can break the chain AND re-insert the pins? Or would I need two separate tools to do the complete job? Thanks!

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      I have been working on a  3-Speed Conversion with alienmeatsack, biknut and steve-condie . I have 2 yellow bikes purchased on the third day of the first indigogo campaign, one for myself and one for my lady. I have purchased most of the needed parts. Three speed freewheel cog set, the derailleur and a new 52t sprocket crankset. The only part missing, besides a chain and some misc. hardware, is a shifter. Due to the odd pitch (pitch is the measurement between cogs) of the 3 speed cogset (6.2mm vrs. 5mm-5.5mm found on most 6-10 speed bike cassettes) I am unable to find a suitable index shifter that will work with a shimano derailleur. Apparently, no one makes an index shifter for a 3 speed, only a friction shifter or a twist grip shifter. I would really like to use an index shifter with a gear indicator. Not so much for myself, but to simplify shifting for my ladies bike. She likes things obvious and simple. Myself, I would use whatever I could cludge together, if I had too. With only three speeds it just strikes me that you should just be able to thumb the shift lever and shift up or down with the indicator showing 1, 2 or 3. Yeah, right!! We all know what should be and what is are often miles apart. No one makes a 3 speed rear derailleur shifter, they only make 3 speed front derailleur shifters and the two are entirely different animals with different pull lengths (the length of cable pull required to move the chain to the next cog).
       
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      Here is a list of all of the uTube videos devoted to electronic shifters. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=DIY+electronic+derailleur This is worth checking out so you can see what the possabilities are.
      I also found an instructable detailing how to build an electronic derailleur. http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Electronic-Derailleur/
      This project is totally awesome. Not only does it solve the shifter problem but it can easily be upgraded to a larger cassette by changing the programming. Also, I have some ideas to turn this into an auto shift by putting a strain gauge on the crank chain that will automatically upshift or down shift depending on how much force I am putting into peddling. Much better than the cadence system built into the controller. It would be easy to also put together a shifter that would also shift a front derailleur by using a 2 channel servo controller. Do to the cheap cost of servo controller boards, DC-DC converters and arduino processor boards, this project could be put together for about $50 plus the cost of the derailleur. The whole system could be powered by the bike battery or a separate 7.4v Li-On battery, like the kind used in RC models. According to what I've read, a 7.4v battery is good for about 40,000 shifts (a conservative estimate).
       I plan on putting some real effort into this project, including designing a circuit board, shift switch with an led readout showing the gear selected and the servo mount. The software has already been written but I will check it out and make sure that it works with my version and is easy to use. I have an idea that will allow me to program the controller wirelessly using my tablet or a smart phone making it easy to tune the system. I think I will see about putting together a complete shift kit with everything but the servo and the derailleur. I have quite a bit of work to do on this but I will post more information as it comes. I am shopping up parts right now and still waiting for my shimano 105 derailleur to arrive. I'll know more when it gets here.
      Let me know if anyone out there that has any experience with one of these electronic shifters or if there is anyone else interested in this project.
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