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1 hour ago, Ryan said:

I want to do It and have read your steps about 5 times now, but I'm just in fear of breaking something. Also I don't have a saw to cut the grip is there anything else I can do? And will everything fit the frame?

If you take your time and go slowly you should not break anything. As for the saw to cut the grip, you could just go buy a metal saw blade (note: you aren't cutting metal, but the fine teeth of the saw blade will make a smoother cut when cutting plastic)

http://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-10-in-Standard-Hacksaw-12150/204748830 (click through the VGLINK stuff to get to home depot)

Edited by Scott C. Kennedy

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Just got thru this entire thread.  Good read.

I wonder if anyone has taken a 14-17-20 freewheel, disassembled it and then replaced the 16T wheel on the 16-19-22 withthe now loose 14T?  No idea about these Chinese parts but freewheel cogs were at least partially interchangeable back when I was wearing out individuals and replacing them, back in the day.

Despite the fact I am on flat ground, I am going to go with the 52T wheel at least as a trial.  For $30 on AliExpress - I think its double that on Amazon, and closest I could find on Fleabay was $37 for a questionable vendor  - its worth taking a chance and seeing if I wind up happy with it. 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/bike-Crankset-Bicycle-Parts-mountain-bike-BMX-Cranks-chain-wheel-BCD130mm-square-hole-52T-single/32734743548.html?spm=2114.13010208.99999999.264.QDaygk

Can't help but think thats a nice looking crank.

Edited by MoneyPit

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The video below shows what I was talking about with respect to removing/changing a freewheel cog.  The last one is typically threaded (could be two together on some 7-spd+ clusters) and it has its spacer built into itself.  Thread it off Freewheel A and on to Freewheel B.  I think its a safe bet the last cog is threaded onto them both - you can see the threads on the 14T - but what we don't know is whether the spacing between cogs is common, whether the threads are common and whether the freewheel bodies' outside diameters are common.  A few minutes hands-on will tell the tale.

I will try it  myself in a few weeks when the parts get here from China.  Waiting on the 14T freewheel.

You can skip forward about 2 minutes to get to the good part.

 

edit:  A 56 front and a 16 back is a 91.0 inch gear.  Knock 4 teeth off the front for a 52T wheel and add remove just two teeth on the back and the 52x14 yields a 96.6 inch gear.  Thats road bike territory.  Be a monster and go 56x14.  104.0 inches.  For sure you need a battery upgrade at that point.

Edited by MoneyPit
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I have a 56T front with the 16-19-22 rear, but haven't really been able to get the bike past 22 mph on level ground. I don't know how the last guy hit 44 mph on a downhill (must have been a hell of a hill) but all the 3-speed conversion has done for me is allow me to pedal slower at my top speed. It doesn't allow me to pedal up to 25-27 mph as I had hoped. I'm honestly thinking of converting back to a single speed and cleaning up the look of the bike. The conversion hasn't produced the results I was led to believe that it would.

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The person who reported that was on a Thin, which may have helped.

Maybe a different front chainring would better suit other aspects of your riding?   A 56 is an extreme by any conventional bike standard.  Thats freaking Superman's chainwheel and its only good for long hi speed runs.

I plan on using the bigger wheels to let me get off the line more quickly, offload strain on the motor at startups and perhaps while I am climbing up a mild hill/overpass.  In an ideal world I am also pedaling easy at 60 rpm at top speed with PAS5, hence the try at swapping in a 14T wheel.

Before you remove a BIG upgrade that you have already gone to the trouble of putting in, perhaps consider it in a different light and adjust your config accordingly?

 

Edited by MoneyPit
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14 hours ago, MoneyPit said:

The person who reported that was on a Thin, which may have helped.

Maybe a different front chainring would better suit other aspects of your riding?   A 56 is an extreme by any conventional bike standard.  Thats freaking Superman's chainwheel and its only good for long hi speed runs.

I plan on using the bigger wheels to let me get off the line more quickly, offload strain on the motor at startups and perhaps while I am climbing up a mild hill/overpass.  In an ideal world I am also pedaling easy at 60 rpm at top speed with PAS5, hence the try at swapping in a 14T wheel.

Before you remove a BIG upgrade that you have already gone to the trouble of putting in, perhaps consider it in a different light and adjust your config accordingly?

 

I'm also on a Thin, and used the same components the other individual did. To get any more top speed out of my bike I would have to look at upgrading the electricals, which is something I don't really plan on doing until one of those components fails first.

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23 hours ago, DIABOLUS said:

I'm also on a Thin, and used the same components the other individual did. To get any more top speed out of my bike I would have to look at upgrading the electricals, which is something I don't really plan on doing until one of those components fails first.

Hi guys,

yeah I have now driven my 3-sp THIN for a while. And I agree with @DIABOLUS: the 3-speed does make the bike feel more "cluttered" and less clean-looking. 3-sp really make the most sense WITH the battery upgrade. What I find is that I pretty much dont use the two lower gears. I just leave mine in the highest gearing more or less all the time. And then I just throttle a bit to start from standstill. The highest gear means I can peddle at a reasonable pace when driving 35kmh or so (which is what I do most of the time). So in essence, I would have been just as happy with just the big crank and the highest geared chainring on the freewheel. No need for any shifters, claw derailleru etc etc. That would be a cheap and good option, I think.

(but, of course, the lower gears MAY come in handy if I ever have the bad luck of running out of juice far from home, cause then one would be royally f...ed with just the one super-high gear!)

Happy modding to all!

JKS

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I am going thru my new bike component upgrades in individual steps.  Only two completed so far.  First was bone stock and last night was with the upgraded 15 20 amp controller and LCD from Luna (yes I just got the bike two days ago).

Initially with all stock equipment - which is an Original that came with a 12.8 Ah battery in the box - I was pedaling in PAS and while I could max outt the bike to the point where pedaling was inefficent at max speed, it wasn't crazy.  Now, with the 15 amp controller, no speed limit and the LCD that gives me selectable PAS levels... I have just enough extra speed that I am freewheeling forwards on the pedals.  To be able to pedal at full speed with a good easy cadence (about 60 rpm) I had to back off the PAS to 2.  Even 3 was too much.

I can definitely see Jks' point above.  I have a 52-tooth crank on the way that will turn the stock 40x16 from a 65-inch gear to an 84.5 inch gear.  Thats quite an increase, and I think before I install the derailleur and cluster in the back I will just throw on the crank, extend the chain and see what happens.  From what I can see at this point, I do pretty well by going to PAS5 from a stop and the motor does a fine job of giving me a push as I pedal of the line.  This evening the toe clips go on and that should give me an even bigger boost off the line.

I still like the idea of a 3-speed, but I am finding that riding technique with a motor in the back is not the same as what I know in ordinary cycling.  Its possible that simpler is better with the right secondary equipment choices.  In my case, more amps out of the controller, a big but not crazy big crank and toe clips to seriously enhance the push I can give to the bike myself.

But if I can disassemble a 14-tooth freewheel and frankengraft it onto the 16... 3-speed it is.

By the way, to everyone that has been using punches and hammers to deal with freewheel disassembly:  Here's the regular tool for that job:

fr202.jpg

 

Its called a pin spanner and they run about $9 USD.  They are used with freewheels of this type, and some bottom brackets.  Probably more of a vintage bike thing.  They are meant to work with pins holes that are 3mm in diameter, which is the standard for both freewheels and bottom brackets (there is a separate BB tool which is narrower).  This tool's pins are 2.9mm in diameter.

I lost mine ages ago.  In the near future, when that 14-tooth wheel is closer to arrival, I'm picking up Park's SPA-6, which is variable-width and the pins are a) replaceable and b) only 2.2mm in diameter.  I have no idea whether or not these low-cost Chinese freewheels conform closely to standards and the extra wiggle room from the smaller pins may be helpful.

 

Edited by MoneyPit

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 Sounds like the fun begins, but unless I'm not understanding your post..... the stock Sondors controller is a 15amp and you upgraded to the Luna 20amp Hot Rod controller, yes? 

From the very beginnings of the 3 speed conversion thread you can tell that the Sondors has introduced bicycling to many individuals who hadn't cycled before. Resorting to everything, short of Dynomite, to get the lockring off the freewheel. My spanner (I can't even remember what, who, I bought it from so long ago, had a screw/nut at the apex of the two arms and its adjustable. I love Park Tools but they are Soooo expensive compared to what else is avalable. Same for Snap-On. You could buy a vacation home for the difference in price, between them and more affordable tools filling your tool box. I might not be so thrifty thought, if my living was based on wrenching with them. 

It was right at 32°, freezing, when I left this morning for my, Commuter Train Assisted, trek into the city but I have great cold weather riding gear and it is quite enjoyable to experience the cooler side of living with the CopperHeaded-RattleMoccasin e3....

Edited by Tabletteer
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EDIT:  Read down a couple of posts before considering a 14T single-speed freewheel as described below

Controller amperage: Found the same mistake in an email I was about to send to Luna earlier today.  Fixed.

Agreed we have some good mechanically-inclined problem solvers here but it was painful to come in late to the game and read the learning process as it evolved.

That spanner you are talking about is the one I am going to buy.  Its the adjustable one.  Looks cheap but being a Park tool it runs about $16.  I do plan on doing a write-up on installing my suspension fork, which requires hammering in the lower crown race.  Instead of Park's $75 tool, or the shakes-inducing hammer-and-punch method, I'll lay out a $6 low-impact alternative.

Had yet another thought here and cam back to this thread to check on freewheel removal Post-Apocalype:  the issues that are being raised vis a vis freewheeling forward... is the solution to that the big crank we have already all looked into... But no one has additionally looked at a 1-speed rear freewheel with fewer teeth.  As in a 14 to replace our current 16.

Link: http://a.co/hIDbxsp

$7.99.  Amazon Prime gets it to me Monday if I press Go.  Thinking it over now.  I may do it just to document the progression from

40x16 stock
to
40x14
to
52x14
to
52x16-19-22
and
52x14-19-22

edit:  Much better product capable of use with a freewheel removal tool so no destructive removal.  But this is getting closer to the kind of money you normally spend on bike parts as opposed to the cheap Chinese stuff so don't be surprised at the cost of the freewheel or the tool.

Link: http://a.co/0LEXnj4

One last thing.  to document it in the forum, Park Tool has a how-to on removing and installing freewheels.  Folks reading it will notice the 14-17-20 freewheel we can't use has removal tool slots.  It also has a side article entitled "Destructive Removal of Freewheels" which will a) look awfully familiar and b) documents the process that the pioneers here had to learn the hard way.

http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/cassette-and-freewheel-removal-and-installation

Edited by MoneyPit

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@MoneyPit Yeah, I thought about a single on the back, but in stock controller form the Fat is already overgeared with the 16t. Now that I have the 25A controller, a 14t single would be ok (still a bear for hills but great for flat land use). Would still love a 14t 17 20 freewheel if it could be found. Suspect it's physically not possible.

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My Shimano HG37 7-Speed 13-28t Freewheel is waiting in my parts bin, on my replacment rim. The new rear rim I got from Niagara Cycles, was miss labeled on their web site as 26 4. After calling them, they refunded my $ and corrected the listing by removed the "4" and now included 80mm to the hypertext link to replace it. The clue, I should have deciphered, was the part number dhl80 36 BK.  http://www.niagaracycle.com/categories/weinmann-rim-26-dhl80mm-36h-black  As soon as the replacment make it to my P O Box (tomorrow) and I can take new precise measurements, I'll order the custom cut 12 gauge spokes from wheelbuilder.com. Niagrah Cycle let me keep the error rim, I've painted is Sondors Wheel Yellow and I am considering building another front wheel, albeit, 80mm and shoe it with a 26 X 4.0 Jaggernaut Pro tire to match the 26 X 4.5 J Pro for the rear. 

Edited by Tabletteer

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Been researching a 14T wheel - single-speed freewheels are new to me as I've always worked with clusters.

The freewheels I have seen used in this thread state they use "imperial" threading, which I take it is British threading.  Thats a hair different but effectively interchangeable with 'standard' ISO threading.  Among others there is a "metric" thread used primarily by BMX bikes.  

Looking at a variety of 14T wheels, and reading product reviews, I was seeing warnings from ATB owners that their newly purchased 14T freewheel wouldn't fit.  Looked a bit deeper and it seems when you drop below 16T on a single-speed freewheel manufacturers of lower end freewheels tend to switch to BMX threading.

I haven't seen an exception although there may be one if I look harder.  I'm sure I could find something high end for a track bike, but thats more money than I want to spend on  an experiment.

I'll just cool my jets, wait for the 14-17-20 wheel and see if I can fit its 14 tooth cog to the other wheel we know fits.

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So wonderful to see so many people doing their gear conversions here in this thread. I had fun working on mine despite the pain and broken parts.

And I am learning more and more, so much that when I fix the fatty, I will most likely also use what you all have posted to adjust to a better setup.

Loving to see what folks are doing with the gearing on their Sondors!

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Well I got my hands on both freewheels and as soon as I had them in one place together I could see there was no mingling of cogs possible.  The 14-17-20 is as was speculated earlier a 5-cog freewheel with a chain protector taking up the rear position and - on mine at least - a lip on the 14T wheel taking up the last few threads where a 5th cog would go.  

And its made like a ... well, a real freewheel.  It has splines for a freewheel removal tool and one I had in the toolbox - a Shimano I think - worked perfectly.  No 'destructive removal' nonsense.  Also its smaller cogs are smaller in size as they should be and the freewheel body necks down accordingly.

And therein lies the rub.  The little 16-19-22 doesn't do that.  Its got the bare minimum material to do its job and thats it.  Thats why it has to be removed with a pipe wrench.  The portion of the freewheel that you glom onto with a removal tool simply isn't there.  Thats how it can be made so skinny.

 

I have all the parts I need for my conversion except the crank.  Since a 14T - single-speed or 3-speed - is out, I am going to sit tight on the back sprocket and just put on the 52T crankset and longer chain see what's what.  If I'm happy with it I may stop there.  Another option is I too may go the 56T route.  I've sourced the right sized chainwheel and chain guard on Fleabay to swap in.

Something else I found today was a crank with 175mm crank arms.  That would be a nice bump.  But the seller didn't spec what the bolt circle diameter was and it needs to be something with options out on the market before I consider buying the crank, tossing its 46T wheel and putting on something bigger.

 

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Did anyone get the LUNA Cycle email last week advertising a new 2 speed motor? Really kool design. Comes with a controller and LCD for $349. Very interesting way the motor transmission works. You can check it out here.

https://lunacycle.com/double-gear-double-torque-motor/

 

Edited by MisterFixIt1952

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They have a video out on it that I watched last night.  Very interesting indeed.  If I do anything with motors though on this particular bike it will be to drive the front wheel.  With my new 52V Storm battery from Luna, I am averaging 800-860 watts to the motor if I am clown-pedaling or using the throttle generously.  And I have tons of capacity left at the end of the day so splitting the power off to a second motor would not be an issue.  

Still, right now I am satisfied with performance, which is 24 mph or so without working it hard vis-a-vis crouching down to reduce drag signature and so forth.

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The Bafang will only spin so fast, no matter how much voltage you push to them. I'm still waiting for Moushmand's review on his dual motor mountain climber. Luna's front drive bafang is not recommended for suspension forks though.

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Three speed up close. With a 3 speed on the stock motor a 16T is the smallest sprocket you can run without stretching the dropouts really wide.

 

3 Speed Derailleur.jpg

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To more or less continue my 14T single-cog thread fork:  At some point I concluded that 14T single-cog wheels did not exist since the 14T wheel cannot wrap itself around 34mm.  You see 30mm-threaded BMX wheels all over the place but not the 34mm we need.

Well they exist you just have to know how to search for them.  '14T 34mm' is all it takes to find 3 of them on Amazon, with this one being $15 and available tomorrow for q couple extra bucks if you have Prime.

41tWgEwbh5L.jpg

 

http://a.co/gO59mdK

That image shows the good news.  Here's another that shows the bad news:

51QwTcWjlVL.jpg

 

First of all, we get our 34mm threading.  We further get a bonus in that the freewheel has a proper extension for an honest to goodness freewheel removal tool. Probably a Shimano compatible which is as close to generic as you can get.  The bad news:  23mm thickness.  I would have been happy to not have the space taken up by the removal tool to shave off a few mm.

Will 23mm work?  I'm sure it can with a spacer or two and some elbow grease.  If you are interested there's your pointer to give it a shot.  I am not going to mess with it as I have all the parts I need for a 3-speed conversion and received the last piece I need today - a 52T front crank that I have already put on and tested with the 16T stock wheel and a 3/32 chain.  Looking to begin the conversion maybe tonight after work.

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Ok, gonna try the 3-speed conversion per Mr. Kennedy on my Thin.  The freewheel removal and installation have me confused. 

  1. Quote

     

    1. Using a hammer and awl, tap the retaining ring for the single speed freewheel CLOCKWISE.
    2. Once the retaining ring is loose, remove the ring by hand, and then lift up the freewheel, catching the loose ball bearings with a magnet.
    3. Remove all the other rings, teeth, and then using a pipe wrench and hammer, tap the freewheel mount COUNTER-CLOCKWISE to loosen.
    4. Once the freewheel mount is spinning, remove it by hand.
    5. Put the 3-speed freewheel on by hand, and hand tighten (no need to crank it down, peddling will do this)
    6. Put both the extra 12mm washers onto the axle next to the new 3-speed flywheel.
    7. Put on both notched washers the same way as you took the pictures before.
    8. Put the wheel back on the bike.
    9. Using your fingers, put on the non-chainside nut/washer/tensioner and leave loose."

     

    So I remove the retaining ring and ball bearings, remove all the other rings and teeth and remove the freewheel mount.  Ok.  So the freewheel cassette already has it's own mount and bearings and stuff?  Ordered cassette etc, but trying to get it straight in my feeble mind. 


  •  

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16 minutes ago, Steve Eldridge said:

Ok, gonna try the 3-speed conversion per Mr. Kennedy on my Thin.  The freewheel removal and installation have me confused. 

  1. So I remove the retaining ring and ball bearings, remove all the other rings and teeth and remove the freewheel mount.  Ok.  So the freewheel cassette already has it's own mount and bearings and stuff?  Ordered cassette etc, but trying to get it straight in my feeble mind. 


  •  

Think of it this way, there are a few parts to a "freewheel"...

Britannica_Bicycle_Ball-bearing_Ratchet_

  1. The sprocket that connects to the chain
  2. The mount that connects to the wheel
  3. The ball bearings that let #1 and #2 move smoothly
  4. The catches that let the sprocket turn the mount only in one direction.

When you need to unscrew the mount from the wheel, you need to turn it counter-clockwise. But, the catches inside it will only let the sprocket engage the mount when it turns clockwise. So if you don't take the freewheel apart or have a very special tool, then you'll just keep spinning the sprocket around the mount, with the catches making that cool clicking sound, and the freewheel never comes off.

Now what about the tool you could use to "keep" the freewheel together? If you have a freewheel spline tool that matches the existing freewheel then you can follow these instructions https://www.sheldonbrown.com/freewheels.html#remove to remove the freewheel. But, in general those tools are highly specific to each brand of freewheel, and the freewheel on the Sondors did not appear to match any spline pattern that I could see. Plus the tools are generally more expensive that a replacement freewheel anyway. So, that's why I chose to use the "destructive" method to remove my stock freewheel.

Is that any clearer?

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When you have "all the answers", I'd love a specific parts list/links to do a three speed conversion on an original Thin. I've always wanted a gear equal to the original, one lower, and one higher. The higher should provide a comfortable cadence for about 18 to 19 mph. So, at ~65rpm cadence, I'd like approximately 14mph, 16mph, and 18 mph. I live on flat land, so truly low gearing isn't necessary. Adjusting to winds is my wish. Taking advantage of tailwind is my dream! 

Thanks so much for for your sharing on this forum! ? 

Edited by LocalGuyTX
Wrong punctuation

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      The good news is I found the contents of DIyshift.com on Github https://github.com/Diyshift (thank you Google)
      Here is a list of all of the uTube videos devoted to electronic shifters. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=DIY+electronic+derailleur This is worth checking out so you can see what the possabilities are.
      I also found an instructable detailing how to build an electronic derailleur. http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Electronic-Derailleur/
      This project is totally awesome. Not only does it solve the shifter problem but it can easily be upgraded to a larger cassette by changing the programming. Also, I have some ideas to turn this into an auto shift by putting a strain gauge on the crank chain that will automatically upshift or down shift depending on how much force I am putting into peddling. Much better than the cadence system built into the controller. It would be easy to also put together a shifter that would also shift a front derailleur by using a 2 channel servo controller. Do to the cheap cost of servo controller boards, DC-DC converters and arduino processor boards, this project could be put together for about $50 plus the cost of the derailleur. The whole system could be powered by the bike battery or a separate 7.4v Li-On battery, like the kind used in RC models. According to what I've read, a 7.4v battery is good for about 40,000 shifts (a conservative estimate).
       I plan on putting some real effort into this project, including designing a circuit board, shift switch with an led readout showing the gear selected and the servo mount. The software has already been written but I will check it out and make sure that it works with my version and is easy to use. I have an idea that will allow me to program the controller wirelessly using my tablet or a smart phone making it easy to tune the system. I think I will see about putting together a complete shift kit with everything but the servo and the derailleur. I have quite a bit of work to do on this but I will post more information as it comes. I am shopping up parts right now and still waiting for my shimano 105 derailleur to arrive. I'll know more when it gets here.
      Let me know if anyone out there that has any experience with one of these electronic shifters or if there is anyone else interested in this project.


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