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Upgrade 350W motor


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Upgrade 350W motor

Hi

 

Is it possible to upgrade the 350W motor to a 500W or higher motor and still fit into the original casing where the motor is into now ?

I have upgraded the bike with a Luna LCD Display KT-LCD3 and Luna Storm Hot Rod 20 amp controller 36v-52v, and now the next thing is to get a bigger/higher voltage battery 48V or 52V

Is there anybody that had any experience with that ?

 

/Sune

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Have a look around the Forum. Better yet, use the search function to find particulars. 

There are many, MANY,  posts about all manner of performance upgrades. They are scattered thruout this vast database of posts. 

https://sondorsforum.com/topic/880-upgrade-750w-bafang-with-7-speed-upgrade/?tab=comments#comment-2761

 

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                                                      the Electric Black Lightening 

New Double Wall 26 X 100mm rear wheel, laced 12gauge Sapim spokes, 80mm Disc, with new Bafang geared 750watt hub motor and 26 X 4.5" tire. New Double Wall 26 X 80mm front wheel laced  12 gauge Sapim spokes, 103mm Disc, 26 X 3.5" tire, 35amp controller, 7 speed conversion and 56 tooth Chain Ring. 1-52V 14Ah & 1-52V 20Ah batteries. 

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Reddy

Edited by Reddy Kilowatt
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Sune,

Executive summary:  500w motor is the easier road to take and lets you finance the upgrade in stages since it can run the same controller as your 350.  750w is the reliability and power king. 

All of the Bafang fat-style motors fit into the same casing, although the 350's and some 500's are plastic and the 750's and some 500's are alloy.  Basically what you do is unbolt the motor from its casing, remove it (its a single assembly so you just pull it all out) and plug in the higher-wattage motor into the casing that is already strung into your wheel.

The alloy cases are much nicer and do a better job of shucking heat than the plastic ones, although there is no evidence that a motor in the plastic casing can or will overheat.

If you have a 250w or 350w motor, you have two choices.  500w or 750w.  Both motors cost almost the same.  Almost everyone who does an upgrade does a 750w, but thats partly because 500w motors were not generally available on the aftermarket until recently.

A 500w motor is only slightly more beefy than a 350w motor.  Most but not all 500w motors use the small plug that is identical to your 350w motor, which means you can either use the original controller (which is pointless except to save money in the near term) or you can upgrade to a 20a or 25a controller.  But that is as high as you can go.  A 500w motor and a 25a controller is an excellent combination especially in conjunction with a 48v or 52v battery.  Also the small motor plug means easier maintenance, as the larger motor plugs capture the motor bolts forever and make things like freewheel removal problematic since the plug is so large no tools (like a freewheel remover) can get over the plug.  There are workarounds but on balance the smaller plug is better for people not experienced in bike maintenance.

If you go to a 750w, that motor is dramatically more robust than a 350 or 500.  It can take anything you can throw at it including a 60v battery and high amperage controller.  The typical 750w setup is a 52v battery and a 35a controller.  You cannot use 20a or 25a controllers with this motor unless you are willing to hand-solder a new plug onto the controller.  

If you can afford to do so, it is better to string the motor into a new wheel rather than do the plug-and-play swap.  You end up with a stronger wheel and a backup wheel you can either sell or use for another project.  Only a small fraction of the many 750w motor swappers out there do this as its far easier and cheaper for the average person just to unplug and swap.

Remember... the motor has nothing to do with your power to the ground.  That is dictated by the controller amperage (torque) and battery voltage (horsepower).  When you buy a motor upgrade what you are buying is reliability and longevity over the long term on your modified, hot rodded system.

Edited by MattRobertson
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Hi Matt

 

Thank you very much for the detail description of what and how the best upgrade is possible.

 

Do you know where to buy a 500W motor that could fit in my 350W casing and a 48v or 52v battery which can fit with the original wiring on the motor and the controller ?

I have already tried to find it on alibaba.com but there is a lot of motors (BAFANG) and battery but it is difficult to get any properly help, I will not buy a wrong one !

I have already bought the  Luna LCD Display KT-LCD3 and Luna Storm Hot Rod 20 amp controller, so I have upgraded the bike relative to the original bike.

Luna Cycle has the battery (48v and 52v) thats fits but I think the are very expensive so I hope that I can find them elsewhere.

 

/Sune
 

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@Sune Sorry batteries are expensive period.  You can get cheaper ones but the reports of fires and explosions are ALL centered around cheap no-name batteries from China using dodgy cells and mystery BMS', or DIY packs made in the soon-to-be-burned-down garage.

Commercially, you really have only three obvious choices.  

  1. Luna Cycle.  They cater to the Sondors market and more importantly their batteries have BMS' that are more robust with typical 52v batteries being set up for 50a continuous and 80 amp bursts.  This is more than you need but down the road you may find the higher capacity useful.  I know for sure that Luna batteries work flawlessly with all controllers, where some batteries from other vendors do not.
  2. ElectrobikeWorld / Lindsey Nguyen: Lindsey has developed a nice home business out of supplying batteries to Sondors owners.  She has multiple models available, hundreds of users and is the default recommendation for a battery seller on the very large (6000+ members) Sondors Facebook group.  Her batteries are less expensive to be sure.  She uses quality Panasonic PF cells which are last-generation but also lower cost and certainly good enough for an upgraded Sondors.  Her BMS' are 30a/50a which is less than Luna, but again sufficient for a Sondors bike.  Her 60v systems are the current performance leader for the platform, but they require a high voltage controller and LCD to go along with the battery... but the end result is a 40 mph bike.  Note she also will do custom builds and you can specify the cell and BMS you want (I'm doing that with her on a mid drive project).  I believe her 52v batteries have issues with 20a controllers and need the 25a controller she sells to fix the problem.
  3. Passion Ebike / Sierra Ebike: This is Wendy Xie (China) and her USA distributor Kyle Chittock.  Both stand-up vendors and active members of the Sondors community.  Whatever you can get from Wendy you can get from Kyle for a little more money, but when dealing with Kyle you are working with a native English-speaker and ship times are also significantly reduced.

As for a 500w motor, there are two types of incompatibilities.  The first is axle length.  A 175mm axle may work without spreading the chainstays.  But on some bikes, maybe not.  You have to see if your bike does.  On my bike, it definitely required spreading.  The 175mm axle is spaced for and usually is used with  a 7-speed freewheel.

The second is cassette cluster versus freewheel.  Your Sondors uses a threaded freewheel mount.  Some motors - and Bafang is going to these apparently as a standard - use the more modern cassette mount.  When searching for a motor they will say either 'threaded' or 'cassette' in their description.  Make sure you pick the right one.

This one is from the reputable vendor I used to buy my 750w.  They use the stock photo so I would contact them (they respond to inquiries) and confirm its the small plug shown in the picture.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Risun-36-48V-500W-Bafang-Brushless-Geared-Threaded-Fat-Bike-Rear-Hub-Motor-175mm-/232397909676?hash=item361bfeaeac:g:QAgAAOSw32lYpsIj

I found a vendor named 'ifunmobi' on ebay that sells the motor and has unique pics that confirm for sure its the right motor, but its a bit more expensive.  Search for '500w geared bafang'

Edited by MattRobertson
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Hej Matt

 

This link, will this motor 500W fit exactly in my casing and is it easy play and plug ?

And is it alloy or plastic ?

I'll thing I would buy a 48V or 52V battery at Luna, I will not take the chance....

Regards

Sune

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Hi  Matt

Do you know if there is a 750W 48V motor that will fit with my Luna LCD Display KT-LCD3 and Luna Storm Hot Rod 20 amp controller 36v-52v

The controller and LCD display can handle 48V and 52V and is 20 amp, will that work with a 750W 48V motor and will it fit in my casing from my original 350W motor on the rim ?

Regards

Sune

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3 hours ago, Sune said:

This link, will this motor 500W fit exactly in my casing and is it easy play and plug ?  It should be.  To be honest almost nobody does 500w upgrades because the absolutely rock solid 750w motors are about the same price.  With that said, yes it should be a simple swap fit.

And is it alloy or plastic ?  At least some are plastic.  I have seen an alloy.  You have to remember Bafang makes motors in production runs where the spec can vary from run to run.  Take particular note of the axle length as they can vary from 160mm, 175mm and 190mm.  But they seem to be always be specified in the sale so all you have to do is shop with your eyes open.

I'll thing I would buy a 48V or 52V battery at Luna, I will not take the chance.... Honestly you can't go wrong with any of those 3 I listed above.  I have bought from Luna with great success, and my current Cyclone project will have a custom battery designed to my specs from Electrobikeworld.

 

3 hours ago, Sune said:

Do you know if there is a 750W 48V motor that will fit with my Luna LCD Display KT-LCD3 and Luna Storm Hot Rod 20 amp controller 36v-52v  The LCD will work just fine.  However the 750w motor has a larger motor plug than the 350 or the 500.  Only the 35a controller fits it and that of course is quite a hefty power upgrade and really fits the extreme robust nature of the 750w motor 

The controller and LCD display can handle 48V and 52V and is 20 amp, will that work with a 750W 48V motor and will it fit in my casing from my original 350W motor on the rim ?  It will absolutely fit the 350w casing.  Tons of people have done that.  But you will have to shell out the money for the badass controller.

 

Edited by MattRobertson
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Hi Matt

 

Do you have a link to the 750W 48V that fit in my causing from my original causing ?

I expect my 20 AMP controller will work with this motor and the same with my LCD display ?

 

Yes, you are right, the price is nearly the same as a 500W motor, but are usure about witch 750W motor that will fit in my 350W  causing, so hope that you can help me with that link where I can buy the right motor that fit in my 350W causingen

 

regards

sune

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5 hours ago, Sune said:

Do you have a link to the 750W 48V that fit in my causing from my original causing ?

This is who I bought mine from, so I know they are a good vendor:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V-750W-8Fun-Bafang-Brushless-Geared-Threaded-Fat-Bike-Rear-Hub-Motor-175mm/232088804917?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D46089%26meid%3D33d3da6e3bb94634a4062d4bfc3d2fcf%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D292028451661&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

I expect my 20 AMP controller will work with this motor and the same with my LCD display ?  It will not fit the controller.  See my previous post where I explain why.  Also there are threads here that explain this with pictures.

edit:  This is the 35a controller that will fit the 750w motor
https://a3ee3610-0553-11e5-8794-f04da2069d31.onlinestore.godaddy.com/products/35a-controller

This vendor also sells the motors, but they cost more and she includes a 7-speed freewheel, which you may not want to mess with as it entails adding a derailleur

Important:  You may need to spread your rear chainstays.  The procedure is described here along with the use of a simple tool you can make yourself.  There are also youtube videos on how to do it with scissor jacks.  If your stays were not meant for a 175mm rear axle (some of the older models used 160mm axles) then you will need to do this no matter what motor you choose.

Edited by MattRobertson
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Sune you should be aware that all of the motors sold currently have 175mm axles, and not only does this mean you will perhaps have to spread your chainstays, but if you do you will also have to either use a 7-speed freewheel and just not use the gears, only keeping the chain on the small rear wheel, or add a derailleur to use all seven speeds, or add a single-speed freewheel spacer when you add your own single-speed freewheel.  This may be more effort than you are comfortable with.  Its simple bicycle maintenance all around but you need to be able to do the work.

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Hi Matt

Thank you, your descriptions are just perfect.

The only ting I need to bee complet sure of is the freewheel descriptions.

If I use a 500W or 750W motor with axle length 190mm then I need to mount a 7 speed freewheel but if I use a 175mm axle length i can not mount a 7 speed freewheel ?

Is it possible to mount anything or change the freewheel to another size (less) so I can step more when I have reach the bikes limit ? (when I reach 35km/t I just step round and round without feeling that I am helping)

Do you have a link to where I can buy this upgrade (1, 3, 5 or 7-speed rear freewheel, derailleur, shifter, chain) that will fit on my 350W motor or a new 500W 175mm axle length ?

 

Regards

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No.  Looking around, I don't see 190mm axles anymore,  anywhere.  Forget about them unless you find one for sale and if you do, its too wide for your bike.

The 175mm axle is often sold with a 7-speed.  You may or may not be able to fit a 175mm axle on your Original without spreading.  I had to spread mine.  I have talked to others where it just fit right in.  A 175mm axle will work with a single speed if you use the spacer I link below.

The 160mm is what some our original 350's had.  That will fit a single speed and a 3-speed.  And again it might need some spreading if 3-speed.  Maybe.  It will not fit a 7-speed.\

Changing the freewheel:  In theory yes.  In practice no.  You will be buying a freewheel that has a small wheel of 11TG and they don't get any smaller.  You will change the freewheel if it wears out.  But again... changing the freewheel on a 750w motor is a problem because of the plug size and requires special custom made tools and patience.  However a 750w motor with a single-speed freewheel and a freewheel spacer from Em3EV (this one:  https://www.ebikekit.com/products/freewheel-spacer-for-1-speed ) can be removed easily thanks to the wrench flats it has.

If you want links you should look at the 3-speed upgrade thread.  I personally have decided not to install dérailleurs as with 4200w peak power I have enough to do anything including climbing long steep hills.

here is one 7-speed freewheel option.  These are known to wear out but there's no real better option found by those who use them (I do not since I am single-speed with the spacer).
https://www.amazon.com/DNP-Epoch-Freewheel-Nickel-Plated/dp/B007A8RPUS/ref=sr_1_2?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1505149049&sr=1-2&keywords=7-speed+11T+freewheel

 

Edited by MattRobertson
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3 hours ago, Sune said:

Is it possible to mount anything or change the freewheel to another size (less) so I can step more when I have reach the bikes limit ? (when I reach 35km/t I just step round and round without feeling that I am helping)

Oh and also to solve the clown-pedaling problem (running out of gears to keep up with the motor) you can change out the front crank to something that can accept different chainring sizes, but this entails understanding how to pull cranks and the specialized tool to do that job, along with adding links to your chain.  An entirely different subject that, if you are not familiar with it, is probably best left to your local bike repair shop.

 

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On 9/7/2017 at 2:24 AM, Sune said:

Do you have a link to the 750W 48V that fit in my causing from my original causing ?

I expect my 20 AMP controller will work with this motor and the same with my LCD display ?

 

Yes, you are right, the price is nearly the same as a 500W motor, but are usure about witch 750W motor that will fit in my 350W  causing, so hope that you can help me with that link where I can buy the right motor that fit in my 350W causingen

 

regards

sune

Hi Sune, if you're looking for more speed, acceleration, torque and range, I highly recommend you go with a 750w motor, 35a controller and a 52v battery. This setup doesn't cost that much more than what you initially wanted. This setup will instantly give you 30mph top speed, much more torque to climb hills and range of 75+ miles using pas. My 750w motor is swappable to the existing stock 350 motor case and it comes with a 7sp Shimano freewheel gear. As Matt stated above you'll need my 35a controller to run the 750w motor and you can find the parts here.

https://electrobikeworld.com/t/sondors-e-bike

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Hi Sune,

Yes the luna lcd will work. With the setup I mentioned above, you can use this lcd settings. It's optimize for less battery drain with decent amount of power.  Cruise control enable, slower pas levels since you have a strong battery, remembers your last pas level, throttle works on pas 0 etc.  

P1 = 100 
P2 = 6
P3 = 1 
P4 = 0 
P5 = 22 

C1 = 02 
C2 = 0 
C3 = 8 
C4 = 3 
C5 = 6 
C6 = 3 
C7 = 1
C8 = 1
C9 = 0 
C10 = n 
C11 = 0 
C12 = 4 
C13 = 0 
C14 = 1

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Lindsey

I can see the you have 7-speed on your Bafang 750W motor, du you also have shifter/Rear Derailleur/Chain ?

Or

Can you perhaps put up some links where I can buy it, so I get the right suff first time and so I am sure the it will fit all together.

 

Regards

Sune

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Hi Lindsey

 

Thank you for the links.

Just a small question, why would you change the crank ?

And if I whats to change my original single-speed to a 7-speed, do you have a link to that too ?

And perhaps a tool the remove the single speed from the motor ?

Regarda

Sune

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Hi Lindsey

 

I have read this post and it is very good.

But my question was if I keep my 350W motor, can I switch my single speed to a 7 speed or do I need to change it to 750W motor before I can get 7 speed.

If I can then er need 7 speed freewheel with the lowest gearing (11T) 

Regards

Sune

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Sune,

No is the short answer to your question above.  The axle length on the Sondors 350w motor is not long enough.  It was designed for a single speed freewheel.  If however you have a general-marketplace 350w motor then MAYBE.  Measure the axle width.  Is it 175mm?  If yes then the answer changes to maybe.  You will just have to try it.  Luckily 7-speed freewheels are cheap, but you will have to perform a destructive removal on your existing freewheel.

https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/freewheel-destructive-removal

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Matt,

The lenght is 175mm. So the best thing is to buy a new motor with 7 speed but is it not longer than 175mm ?

Do you know if there is a single speed with less tooth than the original Sondors 16T ?

 

/Sune

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You are just going to have to buy a 7-speed freewheel and try it, then.  If it fits you will know it.  If not you'll know that too.  At this point you have to do it and see the results first hand.

As for single speed freewheels with smaller teeth, short answer is no.  16T is the smallest reliable freewheel that can fit on English threading.  You will see smaller freewheels but they use metric (BMX) freewheel bodies that are physically smaller and do not fit our motors' with their English threading (by far the most common size for such things). 

There is one exception:  A Chinese 12T freewheel that does its work via an extra wide body that allows a step-down in size smaller than the thread base on the motor ... Its garbage.  Mine lasted less than 20 miles before it self destructed.

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